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Post by kingsteelo on Mar 2, 2015 13:10:02 GMT
Every game has angles, in cs go there are angles where the other person can shoot you and you can't see them, doesn't mean they call it a peek and ban it, yes Combat Arms angles are broken, but there is nothing we can do about it..
I think shoulderpeeking as a whole shouldn't be banned, but certain spots, such as rattlesnake loft nametag or shortfuse mid coke machine nametag should be banned.
Nexon fixed the double crouch glitch which was very over powered back in the day and eventually maybe they will fix the shoulder angles as well, but until then we have to learn to play with them. In EU a nametag is obviously considered glitching and not allowed, but just using shoulder peeking/ shoulder angles is allowed and every player knows how to do it as it's a part of the game, same thing with Combat Arms brazil.
EDIT: Also in CGL the ruleset was 3 recorded shoulderpeeks = ban, I think instead of this we should just use WOGL ruleset and allow normal shoulder angles but the use of a banned spot should be an instant forfeit of that match.
Alsoooo, the brazil and EU ruleset have G3 completely removed, because using the G36 in a shoulder makes it alot more overpowered, we haven't gotten there yet, but if limiting the G36 to 1 per team, then regular shoulder angles shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by mone on Mar 2, 2015 22:57:32 GMT
Don't propose sp, then say some spots shouldn't be allowed, that's going against your own opinion. You had just said that there's nothing we can do about it, so why do you care about name tagging? By the way, banning sp is doing something about it.
edit: Why are you against g3 but not sp?
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Post by kingsteelo on Mar 3, 2015 4:20:51 GMT
Wogl had a good 5 seasons with SP allowed and banned spots, EU is also successful with similar rules, so is brazil.
G36E is not allowed in any other regions, and I never said completely remove it from ruleset, i just said limit it to one or two.
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Post by mone on Mar 3, 2015 7:55:21 GMT
Ca-gl can have successful seasons with sp banned too and I never said that you said to completely remove it from the rule set. I asked why are you against it but not sp?
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Post by zerazmic on Mar 3, 2015 9:02:17 GMT
Okay allow me to explain, being as I kind of made the rules.
As an avid CS player over many years, shoulder peeking is the same as it is in CA, very obviously. There's angle advantages, for instances on de_inferno when you peek the gap between the truck and the corner of the way on CT side A site; your radius of view is far greater than those of the Terrorist side pushing porch. You can see them before they can see you, just because your angle is positionally(yes I made that word up) better and more efficient. Not because you tapped 'D' into a wall. Also there is ping advantages, just like in all games the person with the lower ping will see people just fractions of a second earlier, just like grenades come out of their hands faster. Thus we have the term in CS known as head glitching.
In Combat Arms shoulder peeking is an exploit, yes the game is designed this way, in 3rd step pattern unlike other games on 2 step patterns of movements. WOGL for the longest time only players from like eSiK and Islands would abuse shoulder peeking, until it was made apparent to everyone, then it became abused. Which is why they implemented a No SP rule, not that they could enforce it or even monitor it, it was just a gentlemen's ruling. That was in Season 4, and I can promise you it was I worked for WOGL then lol. Season 5 was basically more of the same, I can't answer for season 6. C-GL had the best response to SPing, pretty much everyone or at least someone on your team is able to record someone sustaining a SP on CA-Recorder, and there is digression on that we will judge whether or not it was sustained or just accidental. Which is why we've kept the rule, and just modified the repercussions.
Also, it doesn't really matter what gun your using in an SP, it's an exploit regardless.. the G3 just happens to have a scope with deeper zoom and good accuracy.
TL;DR: Don't compare CS to CA in angles please it isn't even on the same wavelength. The SP rule is fine relax. If you need it to win you're probably shit anyways.
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Post by dzhao on Mar 27, 2015 7:31:06 GMT
Weird. Your argument states that one player, in cs, has an angle advantage. The same occurs in CA as you pointed out. Why does spamming d cause it to be banned in ca but not in cs? The end result is the same! An angle advantage! All players can sp. There is no advantage for one team. Everyone can learn sp. I've made this arguement in another thread but I'll restate my argument again. Something should be banned if and only if the following is satisfied:
The topic in consideration causes an unfair advantage for one team/player.
If both players have the ability to sp, and both teams play the same amount of rounds on each side. Why is there an unfair advantage? Right handed walls exist everywhere.
I just makes no sense when people die to an sp and rage because it was very easy for the abuser to walk into an sp. It is like when people rage about crouch spam. Both strategies are a part of the game and you're raging at a player that is trying his best to play at the most competitive level. Players play with the intention to win and beat their opponents and if the game allows for crouch spam and sp, they are going to use these techniques. Why can people get mad at it and then get it banned when there is nothing unfair about it. Both players can sp and both players can crouch spam. This argument can be extended to other things as well.
Now obviously there is the argument about the gentleman's agreement. But are you really going to respect this when the game is about winning? Do whatever you can to win without giving yourself and unfair advantage. And based off my argument, sp is not unfair.
The other argument against my argument is as follows. If all people can nametag. Why can't everyone nametag? If all people can hack why can't everyone hack? Well here is the second part of my argument.
Rules are made to keep the MAJORITY of the community satisfied. I'm sure there are people out there that want hacks to be not banned, but they aren't a majority so it will never happen. Also, banning hacks is quite easy when you have a strong ac working on it. This makes the rule very easy to maintain. Rules must be easy to maintain and unfortunately you cannot easily maintain a ban on sp.
So why are you enforcing a rule that is unbelievably hard to enforce. You're going to require people to fraps their games/ take screenshots. You're going to have to make tough calls as to when a player shoulders for too long. In the end people we start to make rumors that the admins are being more biased to some teams than others. It is more simple to let sp occur since enforcing no sp is tremendously hard and in a competitive game where every round counts a judgment call on an sp will definitively stir the pot during season.
Thoughts?
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Post by Slade on Mar 27, 2015 14:33:09 GMT
some sp should be legal and some not legal ex: fkin loft in rattle not legal. how can u know if it is accidental or not a sp is still a sp and u cant know if the guy is doing it on purpose or nah. imo the 2 teams should fraps so u see from the angle of both team what happen cuz like u said sometimes its only an angle and random think it is a sp. but if we do that here come alot of shit for ur guys to deal with lol. u guys should just allow some sp and bann some so it will be less work and shit for u guys .
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IndusTrix
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Post by IndusTrix on Mar 27, 2015 15:31:48 GMT
This guy is such a troll.
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Brady
Media Manager 
Plz no flame.
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Post by Brady on Mar 27, 2015 18:38:44 GMT
Weird. Your argument states that one player, in cs, has an angle advantage. The same occurs in CA as you pointed out. Why does spamming d cause it to be banned in ca but not in cs? The end result is the same! An angle advantage! All players can sp. There is no advantage for one team. Everyone can learn sp. I've made this arguement in another thread but I'll restate my argument again. Something should be banned if and only if the following is satisfied: The topic in consideration causes an unfair advantage for one team/player. If both players have the ability to sp, and both teams play the same amount of rounds on each side. Why is there an unfair advantage? Right handed walls exist everywhere. I just makes no sense when people die to an sp and rage because it was very easy for the abuser to walk into an sp. It is like when people rage about crouch spam. Both strategies are a part of the game and you're raging at a player that is trying his best to play at the most competitive level. Players play with the intention to win and beat their opponents and if the game allows for crouch spam and sp, they are going to use these techniques. Why can people get mad at it and then get it banned when there is nothing unfair about it. Both players can sp and both players can crouch spam. This argument can be extended to other things as well. Now obviously there is the argument about the gentleman's agreement. But are you really going to respect this when the game is about winning? Do whatever you can to win without giving yourself and unfair advantage. And based off my argument, sp is not unfair. The other argument against my argument is as follows. If all people can nametag. Why can't everyone nametag? If all people can hack why can't everyone hack? Well here is the second part of my argument. Rules are made to keep the MAJORITY of the community satisfied. I'm sure there are people out there that want hacks to be not banned, but they aren't a majority so it will never happen. Also, banning hacks is quite easy when you have a strong ac working on it. This makes the rule very easy to maintain. Rules must be easy to maintain and unfortunately you cannot easily maintain a ban on sp. So why are you enforcing a rule that is unbelievably hard to enforce. You're going to require people to fraps their games/ take screenshots. You're going to have to make tough calls as to when a player shoulders for too long. In the end people we start to make rumors that the admins are being more biased to some teams than others. It is more simple to let sp occur since enforcing no sp is tremendously hard and in a competitive game where every round counts a judgment call on an sp will definitively stir the pot during season. Thoughts? nt Ron. Eu plays for nearly 30k Euro at CA lans.. and you don't see them sp'ing. Trust me I watched some matches yesterday. We are over here playing for not shit other than bragging rights, and people still aren't mature enough to handle a single rule that is very simple to abide by. Plz. |
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Post by Luke on Mar 27, 2015 18:43:57 GMT
Thank you for your remarks. When season arrives closer to start date we will address these issues. Please feel free to continue discussing. In the mean time Brady did bring up a point about the EU players. The following link shows the "forbidden actions" for competitive play: gfx.esl.eu/gfx/media/classicgames/ca/forbidden_actions.pdf |
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Post by dzhao on Mar 28, 2015 3:55:54 GMT
I don't understand why people view my comment as a troll. I'm arguing that putting a rule on shouldering is extremely ineffective and the responses I've received aren't actually responses. Instead people have taken my argument to be a troll. Unfortunately, calling another person's argument invalid on basis of it being a troll is not a strong counter argument. I've addressed the argument for shoulder peeking and if the rule should still stand it is best to counter my argument with something thoughtful. Not just: "This is a troll." Or CAEU players don't sp. This league is a NA league and I feel that referencing other leagues doesn't help. None of the responses has given me any inclination of changing my stance on sp and jsut because you have a stance that is opposite mine doesn't mean you don't need to defend your stance. I've defended my stance while referencing the opponent's argument while the most recent responses have disregarded the argument's I've put up. Unfortunately, a mis-communication will never settle a dispute so just brushing off my comment as a troll doesn't end the discussion on sp, as much as you wish it would.
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Post by dzhao on Mar 28, 2015 3:58:40 GMT
And to be honest, as of right now the only counter argument that I'll accept (I'll accept other counter arguments if you say them, but no one has posted a counter arguement) is this:
If you think you can convince to me that enforcing sp is easy and doesn't require bias or subjective analysis then I will favor the rule.
Obviously I'm sure there are other counter argument's but no one has stated them.
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IndusTrix
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Post by IndusTrix on Mar 28, 2015 14:22:50 GMT
Who is you? give us some information about you and we might have a better discussion. I still think you fucking with us.
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Post by dzhao on Mar 28, 2015 17:22:04 GMT
I don't think my name in personal information is relevant to this conversation. Also, how am I fucking with you. I'm the one discussing. You're the one putting in pretty much meaningless input.
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IndusTrix
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Post by IndusTrix on Mar 28, 2015 23:56:29 GMT
Where did i say personnal information?
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